G20 police brutality?

A guy named Ian Tomlinson died of a heart attack at last week's G20 protests in London after an encounter with a riot officer. Avaaz has some video footage:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/fix_british_protest_policing/?cl=214540641&v=3198

What do we think of this, Brit posters? It's not exactly Tiananmen Square, but the police response does seem to have been disproportionate in places.

Edwin


A guy named Ian Tomlinson died of a heart attack at last week's G20 protests in London after an encounter with a riot officer. Avaaz has some video footage:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/fix_british_protest_policing/?cl=214540641&v=3198

What do we think of this, Brit posters? It's not exactly Tiananmen Square, but the police response does seem to have been disproportionate in places.

The police officer will be sacked, but really he should be facing criminal charges.  I know it's a tough job for them but the guy who died wasn't even protesting.

The whole thing was a joke tbh.  See the picture of 1 protester smashing the RBS window as a dozen media photographers stood round taking snaps?

I've been to a few protests but never had any problems.  I know it's worse in London and you get a hardcore element there to cause trouble. The anti war protest and legalize cannabis marches I went on in Glasgow were in good spirits and most of the protesters were having a laugh with the police those days.

Wrong forum too. ;)

***flyingsaucersdisguisedasmushrooms***
***mushroomsinvadingfromouterspace***

When you see the footage on the news, the attack seems completely unprovoked.  I mean sure the guy could've just stabbed one of the policeman's colleagues and just started to walk away, which would make the policeman's actions more understandable.  Probably not the case, and besides attacking a guy with his back turned to you is weak.

And then they think the guy had a heart attack, but aren't they repeating the post-mortem?  Ok so you can drop dead with a heart attack, but it'd be pretty unlucky for that to happen, much more likely that he banged his head when he was pushed over and developed a subdural (bleed around the brain).  The interview with the medical student where she says the guy collapsed onto the floor but was ok initially, then became unconscious, would be in keeping, and so would comments on the above video where he was apparently dazed and stumbling before collapsing.

Only mystery is why they put it down to a heart attack, when he probably would've had clear signs of a head injury.

As far as police brutality is concerned, it could have been that that one police officer was particularly fired up that day, maybe had a previous history of aggression.  But I wouldn't be surprised if there was a sense of the force against the people throughout the ranks on that day, bringing out the worst in everyone.

Either way - the police officer should be suspended/fired/face manslaughter.

Its easy for everyone to judge the officer, and he may be at fault here, but everyone throwing in their opinion wasnt there. Also, in the video he is walking, extremely slowly, in front of the officers. They attempted several times to get him to move, but he continued walking slowly and staying in the way. Also, the video trys to make him seem like a non-threat because he 'has his hands in his pockets'.

1. When a group of officers is walking down a street, you dont slowly and casually walk in front of them impeding their progress. How were they to know he wasnt slowing them down while other protesters did something illegal? Being in the National Guard, I cant say I know their Brit Police Civil Unrest procedures, but ours are basically: anyone impeding you is a potential hostile, and after being given an opportunity to move can be forcibly moved. The stupid twat shouldnt have continued to stand in their way, and no one naturally walks as slow as he was moving. He also is facing the other way, and waits until the police are right at him to turn and walk across their path.

2. You do not stand with your hands in your pockets while impeding a group of officers. What were the officers thinking? Perhaps, does he have a knife, mace, or (even though hes obviously not a towelhead) a detonator? A G20 protest would be a way for one of many radical groups (GreenPeace, Radical Islam, NeoNazis, etc) to not only inflict damage, but to grab international headlines.

The media is sensationalizing a moron who decided to deliberately impede officers being pushed. If he hit his head and died, tough shit, I guess he shouldnt have be intentionally in the way. I would like to once again reiterate that he showed no intention of crossing the street (even having his back turned to it) until the police were right at him. He then decided to continue walking slowly, after obviously being poked and nudged a few times and told to get out of the way. If you do something stupid, youre responsible for the consequences.

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immortaldanmx


Its easy for everyone to judge the officer, and he may be at fault here, but everyone throwing in their opinion wasnt there. Also, in the video he is walking, extremely slowly, in front of the officers. They attempted several times to get him to move, but he continued walking slowly and staying in the way. Also, the video trys to make him seem like a non-threat because he 'has his hands in his pockets'.

1. When a group of officers is walking down a street, you dont slowly and casually walk in front of them impeding their progress. How were they to know he wasnt slowing them down while other protesters did something illegal? Being in the National Guard, I cant say I know their Brit Police Civil Unrest procedures, but ours are basically: anyone impeding you is a potential hostile, and after being given an opportunity to move can be forcibly moved. The stupid twat shouldnt have continued to stand in their way, and no one naturally walks as slow as he was moving. He also is facing the other way, and waits until the police are right at him to turn and walk across their path.

2. You do not stand with your hands in your pockets while impeding a group of officers. What were the officers thinking? Perhaps, does he have a knife, mace, or (even though hes obviously not a towelhead) a detonator? A G20 protest would be a way for one of many radical groups (GreenPeace, Radical Islam, NeoNazis, etc) to not only inflict damage, but to grab international headlines.

The media is sensationalizing a moron who decided to deliberately impede officers being pushed. If he hit his head and died, tough shit, I guess he shouldnt have be intentionally in the way. I would like to once again reiterate that he showed no intention of crossing the street (even having his back turned to it) until the police were right at him. He then decided to continue walking slowly, after obviously being poked and nudged a few times and told to get out of the way. If you do something stupid, youre responsible for the consequences.

So Dan, in the National Guard, would you be actively encouraged to shoot a towelhead in the back if he was intentionally standing in your way for fear that he might have a concealed bomb? 

I know this police officer didn't intend to kill the dude, but this was the end result.  To be fair it was probably that he got carried away that day due to the atmosphere, I can imagine he'd been beating up a few people who got in his way that day.  But if that's what's actively encouraged from higher up the ranks then hey, maybe I will start carrying a weapon from now on.  You see where all this leads... another nation ruled by fear.  Hell I guess we've been there for a while already.  :/

choupolo

So Dan, in the National Guard, would you be actively encouraged to shoot a towelhead in the back if he was intentionally standing in your way for fear that he might have a concealed bomb? 

I know this police officer didn't intend to kill the dude, but this was the end result.  To be fair it was probably that he got carried away that day due to the atmosphere, I can imagine he'd been beating up a few people who got in his way that day.  But if that's what's actively encouraged from higher up the ranks then hey, maybe I will start carrying a weapon from now on.  You see where all this leads... another nation ruled by fear.  Hell I guess we've been there for a while already.  :/

No, I would encourage getting the person out of the way through the standard escalation of force: Shout, Show(means of force, such as weapon, baton, etc), Shove, Shoot(warning), Shoot(small arms fire), Shoot(crew served weapon such as 240B or M2 .50Cal). How far up the escalation of force later you go depends entirely on cooperation of said person. This guy shouldve moved the when the police clearly shouted at him and nudged him with batons.

And I shouldnt have said Towelhead, I guess. I mean, its not like the majority of terrorists are Islamic or anything. But dont worry, after we finish with Islam Im voting yes on finishing off the other religions too.

I dont want to celebrate, I want to sell you hate.

You do not stand with your hands in your pockets while impeding a group of officers.

At no point in the footage does Tomlinson stop walking. He's moving slowly, true, but so are the police, and they have an entire road to walk down (not that they appear to be in a hurry - after the attack the group comes to a halt, possibly in order to block that end of the street).

Tomlinson's back is turned. He is unarmed, isolated and does not have his hands free. He is not posing a threat - if he were, they would have reason to take him into custody. At most he is being irritating. On the basis of this video at least, there is no reason to assault him.

No, I would encourage getting the person out of the way through the standard escalation of force: Shout, Show(means of force, such as weapon, baton, etc), Shove, Shoot(warning), Shoot(small arms fire), Shoot(crew served weapon such as 240B or M2 .50Cal). How far up the escalation of force later you go depends entirely on cooperation of said person. This guy shouldve moved the when the police clearly shouted at him and nudged him with batons.

Well apparently they only escalated to 'shove' and still managed to kill a guy who was merely uncooperative.

Tomlinson's back is turned. He is unarmed, isolated and does not have his hands free. He is not posing a threat - if he were, they would have reason to take him into custody. At most he is being irritating. On the basis of this video at least, there is no reason to assault him.

It's cowardice on a basic level, how can the police or any force/authority ever hope to be respected acting like that.

And I shouldnt have said Towelhead, I guess. I mean, its not like the majority of terrorists are Islamic or anything. But dont worry, after we finish with Islam Im voting yes on finishing off the other religions too.

No worries, I've never worn a towel on my head so I guess I don't mind.

The man is an incompetent moron. And yeah, he was stalling, which you can see as he is walking the same direction as the police, but then begins to walk a jagged, diagonal direction. I definitely think he should have been moved by force to move things along(such as pulling him out of the way), but the cop shouldn't have full-forced lunged at him.          

mastachefbkw

but the cop shouldn't have full-forced lunged at him.          

I, for one, think the price of stupidity should be raised. Maybe not death, but something close.

I dont want to celebrate, I want to sell you hate.

From the start of the video you can't tell if he got in the way or not, look at it in slow motion and you can see from the start theres already 2 police officers behind him toward the right side, they appear to be walking after him and he appears to be moving away from them, but the only direction he can go also has cops.

It's not like he was in a perfectly clear path and then decided to intercept the cops, the video doesn't show that so its a stupid assumption.

He also looks old, weak, and fat.  You don't tackle an old fuck who looks like he can barely walk, that is wrong.  That's whats going to get that cop in trouble, you don't attack old defenseless people in the first place.

Iad umboros

Edwin


A guy named Ian Tomlinson died of a heart attack at last week's G20 protests in London after an encounter with a riot officer. Avaaz has some video footage:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/fix_british_protest_policing/?cl=214540641&v=3198

What do we think of this, Brit posters? It's not exactly Tiananmen Square, but the police response does seem to have been disproportionate in places.

The police officer will be sacked, but really he should be facing criminal charges.  I know it's a tough job for them but the guy who died wasn't even protesting.

The whole thing was a joke tbh.  See the picture of 1 protester smashing the RBS window as a dozen media photographers stood round taking snaps?

I've been to a few protests but never had any problems.  I know it's worse in London and you get a hardcore element there to cause trouble. The anti war protest and legalize cannabis marches I went on in Glasgow were in good spirits and most of the protesters were having a laugh with the police those days.

Wrong forum too. ;)

Whoops :)

I think part of the blame should be laid at the feet of chaps like Prof Knight here -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7967096.stm

Mr Knight, who was organising protests next week, said: "We are going to be hanging a lot of people like Fred the Shred [Sir Fred Goodwin] from lampposts on April Fool's Day and I can only say let's hope they are just effigies. To be honest, if he winds us up any more I'm afraid there will be real bankers hanging from lampposts and let's hope that that doesn't actually have to happen.

Needlessly incendiary. There's your "incompetent moron", dan/mastache.

Edwin

There's your "incompetent moron", dan/mastache.

Mastache? That needs to be your new name, chef.

Anyway, you have a really valid point with that. If the police had been sent to police a protest where there was little to no chance of violence they may have not been so quick to resort to force. For example, if youre to police a gay rights protest, realistically, is there probably going to be any violence? No, there are going to be gay people wearing absurd costumes, dancing, and having themselves a fun time. Switch that scenario to a crowd full of mixed ideologies, reasons for protest, and a large 'kill the banker!' mob mentality and you have a completely different scenario, with different risks.

And Emo, if you watch the vid before he was in front of police, he was standing in front of the bikes with his back turned to the street the police were walking down. After they were right upon him he decided to walk in, ever so slowly, in their way.

I dont want to celebrate, I want to sell you hate.

Mastache

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I'd been reading that as "mustache"... :D

Anyway, you have a really valid point with that. If the police had been sent to police a protest where there was little to no chance of violence they may have not been so quick to resort to force.

Very probably. But we're talking about a specific instance, not the protests at large - one riot officer launching an unprovoked attack on a man walking home from work. The charged circumstances make this understandable, but not forgivable.

Everyone seems to be avoiding the fact that he was intentionally stalling and waited until they were right at him to get in their way.

I dont want to celebrate, I want to sell you hate.

immortaldanmx


Everyone seems to be avoiding the fact that he was intentionally stalling and waited until they were right at him to get in their way.

Because there is no evidence of this in the footage. He may be walking across their path, but he's still heading away from them, and there's plenty of room. As I said earlier, at the very, very most he's being irritating.

In the nicest possible way, old son, is there anybody you wouldn't fellate if he was wearing a riot helmet and carrying a big shiny truncheon?

Edwin

immortaldanmx


Everyone seems to be avoiding the fact that he was intentionally stalling and waited until they were right at him to get in their way.

Because there is no evidence of this in the footage. He may be walking across their path, but he's still heading away from them, and there's plenty of room. As I said earlier, at the very, very most he's being irritating.

In the nicest possible way, old son, is there anybody you wouldn't fellate if he was wearing a riot helmet and carrying a big shiny truncheon?

Im not saying they were right, Im just saying he was being, as you said, irritating. Have you never wanted to push a guy who was being irritating?

I dont want to celebrate, I want to sell you hate.

Yes - which again makes the violence understandable, but not forgivable.

Edwin


Yes - which again makes the violence understandable, but not forgivable.

Understandable and forgivable are closely related.

I dont want to celebrate, I want to sell you hate.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6113960.ece

Ian Tomlinson thought to have died from internal abdominal haemorrhage not heart attack. 

Looking back at the vid I can see maybe two or three instances where he could have injured his spleen which is a common cause of abdominal bleeding after an assault - the baton strike, the shove or when he hit the floor.  Or maybe he had some previous medical problems like an aneurysm which tore when he fell - that would've been picked up in the post-mortem though.

Although there are some reports of him having been attacked earlier that that footage further up the road as well by the same police officers.

Apparently the riot officer in question is going to be tried for manslaughter.