13 Y/0 Raped, then Stoned Before 1000 Spectators for Adultery in Somalia

Re:13 Y/0 Raped, then Stoned Before 1000 Spectators for Adultery in Somalia (Eddie_the_Hated)

Sat, 15 Nov 2008 21:14:36 GMT

You don't have to imagine it. Just google "kids in a sandbox".

Yeah. Catheters feel like that. Although, it wasn't all bad...

...I got to watch Mythbusters as they did it.

Re:13 Y/0 Raped, then Stoned Before 1000 Spectators for Adultery in Somalia (Agent Ghost)

Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:47:20 GMT

Agent, you say you don't believe in blame? In my opinion, denial of free will or moral responsibility does not logically entail denial of blame/punishment. As a determinist, I believe people are "causal fields" - ie they are subject to cause and effect based on the variables of their environ/condition. By blaming or punishing someone, we are setting about a change in their causal field, and it is no longer the same as it was before. Additionally, if an individual knows of someone who was punished for certain actions, this also brings about a change in their causal field vicariously. Many determinists like to think that because everything is caused, blame/punishment is pointless. This is not the case.

Where does choice fit into this though? I understand the effects of punishment. All we're doing is giving a different name for the same process that occurs with everything. It's the carrot and the stick, everything will always tend for the carrot, even if we make the wrong choice and receive the stick. We feel the need to punish someone for the same reason we feel the need to do anything, it's necessity. The so called choices we make works based on always heading for the carrot.

Even if I literally have a stick in one hand and a carrot in the other I can even hit myself with the stick. If I get a sturdy enough stick and get a good swing I can probably crack my own skull. Objectively speaking, if you're shallow in the variables you consider. You might say well this is proof of choice. I don't like carrots so lets say I was holding a bottle of beer instead. On the surface the bottle of beer is more compelling than hitting myself with a club. But you still have to consider why would I choose the club, if I chose the club it would only be because something is more compelling than the beer. Maybe I wanted to prove a point, maybe I'm a masochist, maybe I like to shock people. Everything will take the shortest path, even when it's not the shortest path it's more compelling for some reason. Math never changes.

We're on the same page I just take it one step further. Like I said nothing is isolated. You say individuals have causal fields, I say the entire universe is one causal field. Look at the US or any democracy. They just voted for a black president. Last year, I laughed at the possibility. I believed that a black president would not be compelling to most Americans. Almost half the population voted for McCain but with all the variables considered Obama won. McCain never stood a chance. Everything had influence because nothing is isolated, otherwise it would be nothing. Solar flares influenced the election, I don't know how but they did. The sun is a huge influence on us. We should call ourselves the Sun people. I wonder how many people didn't vote cuase it was raining? A zit on a T-Rex's ass had influence on the election. Everything is related, it's a 4 dimensional web of cause and effect. It's already woven, we're just travelling through.

I recognize that everything is both a cause and an effect. So in this sense people deserve blame for being the cause of a bad effect. However i don't believe it was in their power to be any other way. Also it's pointless to label anything as bad or good as we couldn't possibly measure all the consequences of an action. A bad action can have extremely positive results long term and vice versa. I don't believe in choice. When I look at the spacetime continuum I visualize everything as one big explosion. We're just pieces of carbon from the explosion. We kid ourselves into thinking anything we do is important. Whatever we do, the ultimate outcome is the same regardless.

Re:13 Y/0 Raped, then Stoned Before 1000 Spectators for Adultery in Somalia (UnluckyOne)

Sat, 15 Nov 2008 17:39:25 GMT

From my understanding, determinism does not mean predeterminism.

Determinism asserts that all effects have a cause.

Predeterminism is a religious concept. To decide something in advance. Has an intentional connotation.

Urgh. My brain hurts However, I think we're on the same page. I'm just being thrown by the semantics of predeterminism and when you said "it was always going to be". Determinism has no underlying goals or purpose. It's just cause and effect. As I said before, I think I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

In my opinion, determinism is an poor name to call this ontological viewpoint, as it can result in a lot of misinterpretation by definition. Cause-ism is much better IMO

edit: spelling/thought organising.

Re:13 Y/0 Raped, then Stoned Before 1000 Spectators for Adultery in Somalia (choupolo)

Sat, 15 Nov 2008 16:54:16 GMT

Uhuh, I was actually trying to say that. Although the variables in our universe are vast and unmeasureable (making it unpredictable), I dont believe they are infinite or that there is any element of randomness.

So if the principles of determinism apply to every moment - there could only be a single possible path from the beginning.

Dyu mean to say that if you started the universe again from the Big Bang in exactly the same circumstances, you dont think we would have ended up here talking about this today? What in determinism would have interfered?

I dont understand how determinism doesn't equate to predetermination. Am I being dumb? :s

Re:13 Y/0 Raped, then Stoned Before 1000 Spectators for Adultery in Somalia (UnluckyOne)

Sat, 15 Nov 2008 16:21:59 GMT

choupolo

Sure if you went back with knowledge of your decision's outcome, of course you may choose differently. I'm saying that the circumstances and memories you had back then would have always been that way - so if it happened again you would have made the same choice.

I agree with what you say there. My comment about fatalism and perfect predictability was directed to your comment of:

So as you say, everything that has gone by was always going to be that way from the very beginning. Theres a sense of fate there which is common to Islam too.

This statement seemed a little too sweeping and read a lot like something a fatalist would say. Saying that everything that has gone by was going to be that way from the beginning suggests that there is a pattern or unavoidable path that everything will travel down. The variables in the universe are infinite in number and no one path is predetermined.

However, I may have misunderstood what you were trying to say.

Re:13 Y/0 Raped, then Stoned Before 1000 Spectators for Adultery in Somalia (choupolo)

Sat, 15 Nov 2008 15:18:02 GMT

Many determinists like to think that because everything is caused, blame/punishment is pointless. This is not the case.

Yep like saying that whatever will happen will happen, then sitting on your arse not doing anything. What you do still makes a difference, its just that you were always going to do that.

Determinism should never be confused with fatalism or perfect predictability. If you could indeed go back in time, and had the same memories as you do now, your causal field would be different and hence you may settle on a different choice.

Sure if you went back with knowledge of your decision's outcome, of course you may choose differently. I'm saying that the circumstances and memories you had back then would have always been that way - so if it happened again you would have made the same choice.

So then I'm not seeing how determinism is different to fatalism?

I would love to time travel - I would go back and kill the other me, just to see what happens.

Re:13 Y/0 Raped, then Stoned Before 1000 Spectators for Adultery in Somalia (UnluckyOne)

Sat, 15 Nov 2008 14:55:13 GMT

Agent Ghost

I contradicted myself, sort of. I don't believe in choice so I don't like when people place blame on others. You ever notice how blame is always very shallow.

Agent, you say you don't believe in blame? In my opinion, denial of free will or moral responsibility does not logically entail denial of blame/punishment. As a determinist, I believe people are "causal fields" - ie they are subject to cause and effect based on the variables of their environ/condition. By blaming or punishing someone, we are setting about a change in their causal field, and it is no longer the same as it was before. Additionally, if an individual knows of someone who was punished for certain actions, this also brings about a change in their causal field vicariously. Many determinists like to think that because everything is caused, blame/punishment is pointless. This is not the case.

choupolo

You were only ever going to make that one choice you did years ago - and no matter how much you think about the other possibilities back then, if you lived that time again, you would make the same decisions.

So as you say, everything that has gone by was always going to be that way from the very beginning. Theres a sense of fate there which is common to Islam too.

Determinism should never be confused with fatalism or perfect predictability. If you could indeed go back in time, and had the same memories as you do now, your causal field would be different and hence you may settle on a different choice.

Re:13 Y/0 Raped, then Stoned Before 1000 Spectators for Adultery in Somalia (mastachefbkw)

Sat, 15 Nov 2008 10:05:34 GMT

Are you sure you had them cut out? It would break open the stitches if you did that and you'd be eating more blood than burger.

I had to chew with my front teeth. Hell, I even ate chips the day after the surgery and I didn't get dry socket, or whatever its called. I had a cousin who got dry socket and said his gums got infected. Doesn't sound pleasant.

Re:13 Y/0 Raped, then Stoned Before 1000 Spectators for Adultery in Somalia (choupolo)

Sat, 15 Nov 2008 09:02:54 GMT

Yep, even when it comes to making a decision, in the end its just a bunch of electrical impulses organised in the brain over a certain nerve pathway. The pathways are shaped somewhat by what you've experienced in the past, and decision making parts of the forebrain are then thought to guide your subsequent actions, based on the stronger connections. Its how subtle advertising when you're not acutely aware of it (Derren Brown style) suckers us all at some point.

You were only ever going to make that one choice you did years ago - and no matter how much you think about the other possibilities back then, if you lived that time again, you would make the same decisions.

So as you say, everything that has gone by was always going to be that way from the very beginning. Theres a sense of fate there which is common to Islam too.

The sense of freewill only comes from the fact that right now, from our perspective, when we're faced with a number of options next week, shall I or shan't I sleep with the bosses hot daughter - we feel like we've got the choice. And that choice feels like ours, just like our hand feels like ours only because its attached to our body. But in the end, you'll only ever make the one choice.

Loco - I said I didn't want to even imagine it let alone see it!

Re:13 Y/0 Raped, then Stoned Before 1000 Spectators for Adultery in Somalia (Agent Ghost)

Sat, 15 Nov 2008 06:38:51 GMT

I contradicted myself, sort of. I don't believe in choice so I don't like when people place blame on others. You ever notice how blame is always very shallow. Nothing is as simple as it seems, complexity is complex because it includes everything. Nothing is isolated, anything that's isolated would not exist. So cause and effect has it's dirty hands on everything.

People will say something like Lisa failed her math exam because she didn't study. But why didn't she study? Maybe it was because mommy forces her to take 2 hour piano lessons every night. Why does Mom do that, could she be trying to live vicariously through her child because she failed to meet her own personal goals. Why did Mom not meet her perceived goals? Maybe she failed too many fucking math tests lol.

My point is that all cause and effect can theoretically be traced back to the Big Bang (perhaps even further than that. Imo choice is an illusion that is perpetuated by the fact that we couldn't possibly perceive all the variables involved in the equation.

That being said I have no problem correcting what's wrong or evil. Sometimes the best way to do that is to just watch it die.

Re:13 Y/0 Raped, then Stoned Before 1000 Spectators for Adultery in Somalia (locopuyo)

Sat, 15 Nov 2008 06:28:46 GMT

choupolo

Aaaagh, dont talk about penis pain - its one of those things that is too painful even to imagine!

You don't have to imagine it. Just google "kids in a sandbox".

Re:13 Y/0 Raped, then Stoned Before 1000 Spectators for Adultery in Somalia (choupolo)

Sat, 15 Nov 2008 05:47:44 GMT

It was just referring to what you said about the human race 'deserving' it. I thought it implied blame. But I get what you meant now.

Re:13 Y/0 Raped, then Stoned Before 1000 Spectators for Adultery in Somalia (Agent Ghost)

Sat, 15 Nov 2008 05:25:14 GMT

If we were more intelligent, then you could blame us, but like you dont blame a kid for setting fire to your curtains, you can't really blame

I never believe in blame. I'm a causal determinist, I don't even think choice exists. Emotions and thought exist but where does free will fit in this picture? What is free will based on?

Re:13 Y/0 Raped, then Stoned Before 1000 Spectators for Adultery in Somalia (choupolo)

Sat, 15 Nov 2008 05:12:01 GMT

Aaaagh, dont talk about penis pain - its one of those things that is too painful even to imagine!

My most painful experience was probably appendicitis which dragged on too long due to lack of theatre time and staff, and ended up perforating (bursting and leaking poo and pus into my abdomen...nice). Felt like I'd been shot in the stomach...I couldn't bend forwards for a month.

Agent, I agree with most of that. I probably have a slightly more optimistic outlook though. I dunno if the human race deserves it, after all we're just another creature on the earth, and pretty dumb on the grand scale of things. If an alien species came to earth that was a million times more capable than us, they would do nature programmes and analyse our selfindulgent, apathetic lifecycles.

If we were more intelligent, then you could blame us, but like you dont blame a kid for setting fire to your curtains, you can't really blame the human race for being the way it is. Sure some of the consequences are much more terrible, but are they ever gonna go away? Monkeys are also capable of social division and brutal murder - we're just as likely as them to suddenly turn around and say hmm lets not do that anymore.

That said, we do have the capcity for something greater - sparks of genius occasionally. Shame it will never happen to the whole human race at the same time. Until then, you just do what you can, and some brighter sparks in some corners of the world sometimes do more than we can - perhaps with futility but what the heck. At least its interesting to talk about, heh.

Re:13 Y/0 Raped, then Stoned Before 1000 Spectators for Adultery in Somalia (Eddie_the_Hated)

Fri, 14 Nov 2008 21:41:42 GMT

've never had to have my wisdom teeth pulled, or crushed, or shattered, or oblitereated or whatever other painful way dentists and maxfax surgeons can think up in their sadistic little minds!

I've had, in one medical visit, three prostate exams (one of which performed by a flamboyant homosexual medical intern), a catheter put half-way in place, with failed attempts to permeate an as-of-then-undefined blockage in my urethra, causing internal bleeding. I was given laxatives, and a water pill, followed by local anesthetic, and razor-blades attached to the end of a catheter, slid a half-foot up my penis, to split a urethral-muscular stricture I'd gotten resulting from a fight. I spent two days in hospital, before coming home, sleeping off three restless nights with a bottle of Vicodin, before having to remove the catheter myself, two days later.

I win.

I have medical records to prove it.

You can all go home now with your pussy stories about medical pain.

Re:13 Y/0 Raped, then Stoned Before 1000 Spectators for Adultery in Somalia (Agent Ghost)

Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:29:21 GMT

Some Atheists are trying very hard to convert people. Which I find hilarious. If you're an Atheist, and don't believe in an afterlife you shouldn't care about anything enough to want to convert people. I don't have fantasies about the world being a better place if everyone was Atheist. Everything has to do with class warfare, Atheism offers no solution to this fundamental problem. Even with a secular world everything would still be shitty (not to mention pointless). And frankly I don't care if the world improves. I have no illusion of hope for the human race. I want to see everything crash and burn. Life is a big cosmic joke, when you understand this you gain true freedom. I remain a personal optimist but the world is fucked and it will never get better. The human race has no hope at all of long term survival and our downfall will be incredibly painful. Actually what part of our existence hasn't been incredibly painful? With all our so called morals and high technology the majority of the human race is still starving, we're worst than animals. I'm just glade I've lived in an age where I get to witness these ideals completely fail in any practical test. I want to see western civilization fold. I want to see a return of violent anarchy. If i wanted to start a religion it would be named Nihilism. I expect nothing but the worst for society, because that is what we deserve.

I hope you guys do well and enjoy life. I hope you don't get bogged down by the economy crashing and record levels of depression, but I want to see the masses panic.

So I definitely don't want to convert anyone, even less if I thought it would help.

I just like killing time with these arguments. Who knows, maybe someone can convince me that the human race is worth salvation.

Re:13 Y/0 Raped, then Stoned Before 1000 Spectators for Adultery in Somalia (choupolo)

Fri, 14 Nov 2008 16:44:22 GMT

Its interesting because many people seem like they are arguing Atheism as a religion ie a set of beliefs which drive their actions. Not you, I know you just advocate rational thinking. But the guy in the video kinda did.

The fact that he ends his video by saying, "I think I'll end by saying mission accomplished" sorta speaks that he did indeed have a mission. Missionaries---> religion.

Re:13 Y/0 Raped, then Stoned Before 1000 Spectators for Adultery in Somalia (Agent Ghost)

Fri, 14 Nov 2008 16:22:53 GMT

An individual who happens to be an Atheist may have an Agenda but Atheism itself has no Agenda. Atheists get in arguments with eachother over this all the time. I have the sentiment that Atheism is essentially useless in terms of conquest. It only serves the people who call themselves Atheists. Aside from refutting religion Atheism is an empty shell. Most Atheists don't even care about religion.

Atheism is a futile enterprise. Like a condom, it doesn't do anything other than block something that is disagreeable. Either people use it or they don't. Ultimately if religion disappeared it would lose all it's meaning as it wouldn't protect against anything. Thus any agendas attached to Atheism would lose it's ride.

My point is that Atheism isn't an alternative to religion any more than a condom is an alternative to HIV.

Re:13 Y/0 Raped, then Stoned Before 1000 Spectators for Adultery in Somalia (emofag)

Fri, 14 Nov 2008 16:20:28 GMT

mastachefbkw

Pussies. I had mine cut out and was eating a fucking burger after the surgery.

Are you sure you had them cut out? It would break open the stitches if you did that and you'd be eating more blood than burger.

Re:13 Y/0 Raped, then Stoned Before 1000 Spectators for Adultery in Somalia (choupolo)

Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:54:37 GMT

Oh heh, I was joking about the Pythagoras bit, sorry - didn't make that clear. I felt like being unfunny as I was watching Never Mind the Buzzcocks on TV. Course he doesn't have to be able to pronounce it to make a valid point.

Id still use the word agenda though, although I probably just mean bias.

To answer his statements (as they weren't really questions), which are 1) the earth is spherical, not egg shaped and people knew that for ages - and 2) human embryonic development goes seed, clot, flesh, bones rather than seed, clot, bones, flesh and again people knew that for ages.

So 1) he even concedes himself the poles of the earth are flattened and 2) technically its seed, bunch of cells, gut tube, nerves/spine, limbs etc. to be pedantic 'clot as in blood' as he puts it would come later when the circulation is established.

But again the quran is not a science textbook - it merely asserts the idea that humans dont just materialise from ether, but develop in an amazing way that people may not realise.

Then of course the greek thinking civilisation did come up with a lot of this stuff a long time before. Just because they did, doesn't make it any less interesting. I dont really agree with some muslims who claim that the science parts of the quran are there to prove where the text may have come from.

The book is designed more to be a thought-provoker even to the most illiterate person, and in that way its great it has aspects of science, philosophy, history, mathematics, peotry and art so it might appeal to different types of people who think in different ways.

The obvious problem is that many arabic words are very complex in meaning - often meaning several different things in English. So English translations although necessary so that many people in the world can read it, you're never gonna get the full picture. Personally I can read arabic but dont understand it so even I have that problem.

But of course you're right in saying the best people to ask questions are often the people who dont agree with you.